25. Fame the Crying Game
The story goes that The Associates split because Billy just couldn’t face the prospect of a world tour and everything that goes with it- in other words taking his career to a new level. There is another side to this- his side. And it’s always healthy in the interests of balance and fair play to hear all sides to a story. I am going to recount his side exactly as I heard it- and it might surprise some people, particularly those in the music press at that time. During the entire time that I knew Billy he was extremely abstemious towards alcohol and drugs in general. He occasionally had a ‘Brandy American’ in the pub but never more than one.
It wasn’t always so and during the period leading up to the split of The Associates, he and Alan Rankine indulged in large amounts of alcohol and drugs- the latter being mostly speed and cocaine. On one occasion the two of them took so much speed that they both ended up in hospital with pulse-rates over 200. It was after this experience that they made an agreement to stop taking drugs altogether and it was the breaking of this agreement which caused Billy to walk out and split the band. They were due to rehearse the night before the first date of the tour which was a sell-out at the Dominion Theatre in London. When Rankine appeared it was immediately obvious to Billy that he had taken cocaine- two white tram-lines between nose and mouth clearly indicated this to be so. Billy’s reaction was instantaneous- he abandoned the tour and returned to Dundee.
The fact of the matter is that Billy loved to perform. I’ve lost count of the number of times when a visitor to our house would be given an impromptu rendition of a new song. I was perfectly happy to be bullied into accompanying him on the piano. There were many other occasions when he sang a capella for people. All of this seems to be at odds with the idea that he shied away from the spotlight and was in any way afraid of the attention which fame brings. It is true that he wasn’t comfortable with being on camera- but he wouldn’t be the first performer to feel this way. This alone isn’t sufficient to support the idea that he had no desire for fame and success. If he didn’t, then why on earth did he work so hard to get recognized in the first place?
I have assessed it as follows: Billy’s priorities music-wise were songwriting and recording. Any performing would have to be done on his terms alone- which invariably meant an intimate atmosphere with a close communication with his audience. The one-off performance at Ronnie Scott’s in London in 1984 was a perfect example of this. A small band of hand-picked musicians with the excellent Howard Hughes on piano- and Billy was in his element. He mentioned this concert several times during the time I knew him. It was close to perfection- and Billy was always perfectionist-almost-to-a-fault. Afraid of success? Like most of us he was only afraid of failure and was intelligent enough to know that anything half-baked simply wouldn’t cut it.
January 20, 2010 at 7:51 am
John Murphy was that human drum machine!!! I remember when i first saw The Associates shortly after they were up and running, i was amazed at how sparingly JM played.He was perfect for the band at that time.That early line-up was perfect.
January 20, 2010 at 9:02 am
Wow! You knocked back joining The Associates!! So it was definitely fate that you eventually teamed up! Can’t wait to read the next bit!
Mags x
January 20, 2010 at 10:44 am
I’m delighted that you have begun this blog Steve, and very much look forward to reading it!
Gary
January 21, 2010 at 12:12 am
Hi steve nice read. Can you recall Seagate studio’s dundee and the flat in north london Jimmy Mackenzie just like to say hi again. Also cant get over such a small world it is after chatting with (Balcony) Steven Lester
January 22, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Thanks for writing this blog Steve….good to see that Billy and the Associates are still remembered after all these years….look forward to the next installment!
Sean
January 22, 2010 at 8:59 pm
Brilliant start to a brilliant blog,what memories to cherish,to miss out on a place in the associates is unfortunate but at least it was delayed compensation that you teamed up later on..
This is going to be awesome
January 22, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Thanks for starting this block. Good to remember the best voice in pop (at least in my lifetime).
January 23, 2010 at 3:48 pm
This is great! I always knew there had to more then what was written in that book about Billy. Still miss him so this is a great tribute to him! Looking forward to the next posts!!
Ronald (NL)
January 25, 2010 at 8:25 am
Nice to see that, in the passing of time, you became part of the life and times of Billy. We need more tribute nights! Bizarrely enough, some years ago on a visit to Dundee, I was walking through the overpass into town and a busker was singing Sour Jewel!! Needless to say, I had to stop him and have a chat…. Keep up the great blogging! Tracey
January 27, 2010 at 11:29 pm
Tracey- a busker singing Sour Jewel? Really? You’ve made my day. Thanks for that. xS
August 28, 2011 at 10:46 pm
That busker would be steve purvey who loves billys stuff
August 29, 2011 at 7:30 am
Why would it be Steve Purvey? Assuming there might be other buskers on the planet who like Billy M.
January 28, 2010 at 2:50 pm
My pleasure Steve, although I thought Sour Jewel was quite an unusual song to be ‘busked’…. That said, it definately made my day. We ended up having a weekend in Broughty Ferry! Look forward to reading some more! T x
January 28, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Me and my friend had a weekend in the Ferry, not me and the busker!! x
February 11, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Nice site Steve – well done! I’m impressed- will be in touch soon.
BTW To J@mes Ried (comment above) -sadly Jimmy tragically passed away in 2001 he is badly missed.
February 12, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Grant- great to hear from you- I’ve been wondering where you were. Get in touch when you can. S.
February 14, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Nice one Steve takes me back to the days of Bonnybank road, the pigeon hut, Bill in the Jackie magazine as a model and our ladys primary school.Most excelant blog looking forward to reading more…Cheers.
N.
February 14, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Hi Grant nice to hear from you hope you keeping well. Yes i know about Jimmy passing away a few weeks before he passed i tried to get him to come to Nottingham when me and the missus were in Dundee. Also shame about Big Jim (Billy’s Dad) as well. See Ya James
March 19, 2010 at 5:30 pm
A very interesting read, the most amusing part being the story about Billy’s willy!! Hillarious!!… Next instalment if you please….
March 20, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Wild is the wig…priceless.
April 13, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I was just digitally mastering my 12″ of JiH’s “Take Me To The Girl” (Cheers, Grant!) last night and it got me thinking about all things MacKenzie, as usual. Fortunately, I happened across this blog. Thanks, Steve, for sharing the anecdotes. As much as I loved his music, my heart goes out to anyone who collaborated with him since he seemed to be a handful. Fortunately, the end results were usually well worth it. (Though I’m still not convinced about “Wild & Lonely”)
April 14, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Billy hated ‘Wild & Lonely’- on that subject he once said to me: ‘every Hollywood actor is allowed one bad movie, aren’t they?’ To be fair, the songs weren’t that bad but the whole album suffered from a typical mid-80s production (Julian Mendelssohn of Pet Shop Boys fame). Billy was a handful but lots of fun and a fascinating guy in general. Haven’t found a co-writer like him since. S
April 15, 2010 at 4:32 pm
That production of W+L is singular among the Julian Mendelsohn projects I have as being the least interesting. I’ve no problem with the many other examples of the man’s work in my record collection. Apart from his production of “Fever In The Shadows,” the rest of the Associates work just drifts off into ether. I think Billy was best served by collaborators who allowed a bit of madness or even hysteria to infect the results. Obviously, I have no problem with “14th Century Nightlife!” I’m very thankful I purchased “Eurocentric” as soon as it hit the market!
April 17, 2010 at 9:38 am
Yes- perhaps the only remarkable production aspect of ‘Wild and Lonely’ is that JM managed somehow to make all the guitar parts sound like crappy digital synths. V pleased to hear that someone else gets ’14th C/Nightlife’- not for the faint-hearted!
February 22, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Hi Jim- just found this post- do you think you could e mail an MP3 of take me to the girl- I don’t have a copy
send to gmc5@btinternet.com
also does anyone know if any copies exist of Billy ‘s studio demo of Shadow to fall?
Steve if you are reading be in touch soon-are you going to Brighton ?
Grant
October 19, 2011 at 10:26 am
Sorry Grant- I somehow missed this comment and only just noticed it. I’ll be in Brighton towards the end of November I think. Steve
April 15, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Steve is there another version of 14th Century Nightlife as the one you played me and my mate in your flat in london was so diffrent the violins were mad and it seemed faster than the Eurocentric release.
April 17, 2010 at 9:28 am
James- no, the version on Eurocentric is the only one that we ever did.
May 25, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Steve,
Thanks so much for sharing your stories – it’s a fascinating insight in to a relatively undocumented period of Billy’s life. I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling grateful that Billy paired up with you to produce some astonishing work in the 90s. It’s just a shame that it took so long – too late – for this material to come to light.
But whatever happened to McArthur’s Son? It sounds like a song you were proud of.
On the subject of rare recordings, is there – to your knowledge – much material that is yet to see the light of day? We were spoiled with belated Billy releases and reissues but it’s been quiet for a long time now.
Also are you able to shed any light on why Eurocentric ‘disappeared’ to be later replaced by the One Little Indian compilations? (Very glad I got hold of Return to Love before it was deleted.)
Cheers! And thanks again.
Johnny
May 25, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Johnny- the master for the first and only version of ‘McArthur’s Son’ wasn’t kept. The studio where it was recorded erased the tape- meaning that a remix with Billy’s vocal couldn’t be done. I have the demo on DAT but, like other demos I still have, it is v rough. I feel strongly, as do Billy’s family, that releasing unfinished work is not what Billy wd have wanted so what is already out there is pretty much it. On a more positive note, I can tell you that a German label (Destination Pop) is releasing the original version of ‘Return to Love’ on vinyl- this is the up-tempo version which I originally rejected because I thought it was a bit camp. Hearing it now though, it actually sounds pretty good, barring a crappy hi-hat sample. Regarding ‘Eurocentric’- it was deleted 2 weeks after its release in 2001 by ROL Records, my former friend Paul Haig’s label. The official reason given was that it was deleted ‘at the family’s request’ but this is untrue. It’s release coincided with the Haig/Mackenzie album ‘Memory Palace’ and the general consensus was that Eurocentric was a ‘better’ album- as if music is some weird competition. But people talk and Paul obviously listened. ‘Professional jealousy’ is the real reason that Eurocentric was deleted. If only I had had the chance to speak to Paul, I wd have reassured him that what people say is bullshit, his catalogue speaks for itself and although we all get a bit insecure sometimes, he shouldn’t have sacrificed a friendship for such nonsense. Cheers, Steve.
May 25, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Hi Steve,
Given what you said, I hope you were happy with the subsequent Auchtermatic and Transmission Impossible sets as they seemed a fitting distillation of the two sides of your work with Billy: both the electronic and piano/ ballad–based compositions.
Thanks for the tip-off regarding Return to Love on vinyl. Will look out of that. (Do you have a URL?)
Thanks again and keep up the good work.
May 25, 2010 at 7:58 pm
A URL for the label? No- afraid not. I think there’s something about it on WordPress if you do a search on ‘Destination Pop’. It won’t be out for a few weeks yet i reckon. Cheers, S.
May 26, 2010 at 11:38 pm
Hi Steve was wondering if you could shed some light on the following. I was told years ago that you and Billy were going to have 3 project groups on the go doing diffrent style’s of music. Were they called the following “Case” which was glam rock, “Outerpol” which was dance and electronica and also under Billy’s own name just doing ballad tracks. Thanks James
May 28, 2010 at 7:40 am
I can’t remember what ‘Case’ was supposed to be but it was mentioned in The Glamour Chase book. ‘Outerpol’ was for the electronica as you say (inc the songs Billy did with Paul Haig). The ballads/piano-based material was under ‘Winter Academy’. I cdnt keep up with it half the time. Having said that I seem to have inherited this tendency, having several projects all going on at once. Cheers, S.
June 7, 2010 at 12:25 am
Steve it so strange but it has brought back some memories about “Medieval Carnage” from when me and my mates when were at seagate studios and us and Billy were drinking tea and talking about astrology and Billy brought up the subject of dreams and he asked us what we thought dreams about Medieval Bloody Battles was about and are response was we had no idea. See Ya J@mes
June 7, 2010 at 9:56 am
Billy may have had a predispostion for dreaming about such things- I know that hallucinations are a common factor in mental illness and I believe that he had become ill in the clinical sense- i.e. a chemical imbalance in the brain had occurred. The press dwelled upon his mother’s death in ’96 as a root cause but I don’t think there was any connection. As Betty, his aunt put it, Billy’s mind ‘crashed’ in the same a way a computer crashes when it gets overloaded. I think that’s a far more accurate explanation. S
June 7, 2010 at 10:11 pm
I think you and Betty have hit the nail on the head. It is so sad what happend to both Billy & Jimmy Mack these guys were True Gents & Star’s god bless em. Thanks James
June 7, 2010 at 10:34 pm
When you mention Jimmy, his death is maybe even more difficult to accept than Billy’s- Jimmy died at 32 with so much unrealized potential- then there was Betty who died in her 50s. You can say it’s all part of life’s ongoing tragedies but that family has really gone through it. S
August 1, 2010 at 5:23 pm
John Vick’s ’3 Gypsies in a Restaurant’ is that the same John from Finitribe by any chance. See Ya J@mes
August 1, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Yes- that’s right. John from the Finitribe. S
August 2, 2010 at 9:38 am
Steve, do you mean it gets worse from here?! I shouldn’t be shocked, though. Nothing surprises me in the professional music world.
August 2, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Yes- it’s a strange business. Probably the only one that’s run by people who know nothing about the product they’re trying to sell. S
August 18, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Phew! What a psychodrama that would be! Never a dull moment, eh? I don’t know if Billy took therapy but it might be advised for his friends. I’m looking forward to the “Return To Love” single. I just dropped Gilbert a line to order it. Thanks again for the continued amazing tales of Billy.
August 19, 2010 at 9:25 am
I don’t think Billy ever had therapy- after the episode I described, I got over the whole affair much quicker than I might have. You might even argue that his antics were a form of therapy in themselves! As I said, nothing was ever done with the slightest bad intention or malice. I think he was fascinated by human behaviour and took any opportunity to study it.
August 18, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Steve — really enjoying all these entries, the personal perspective on Billy as both collaborator and person is a wonderful way to get a sense of him even at this distance. Also good fun to read about your other work too — the Mullet of Seaford story is a treat!
Have you been following (and if you have, do you have any opinion on) the Whippet at the Wheel blog? I’ve really enjoyed its detailed, fan’s eye effort at collecting the various scattered rarities out there from across the course of Billy’s overall career — the more so because it does solely concentrate on the honest to god out of print songs as opposed to just putting the whole catalog up for download. That said, your perspective on it may well be different!
August 19, 2010 at 9:17 am
Ned- I didn’t know about the Whippet at the Wheel blog but will check it out. It sounds like a great idea- I think any dissemination of Billy’s work is a good thing. If it involves a few bootlegs that’s fine with me. S
August 27, 2010 at 12:31 am
Sid Law is a holy man. I hate to resort to downloading MP3s, but no one will sell me the “Pastime Paradise” or “Country Boy” singles at any price. For over a dozen years!
August 27, 2010 at 7:33 am
Have you tried the Yahoo group? Or maybe you’re already a member. Other than that I can only think of the Affectionate Bunch site and Whippet at the Wheel but you’ve probably tried those too. S
August 28, 2010 at 9:29 am
I’ve had an email from a friend in Canada who can get you both ‘Country Boy’ and ‘Pastime Paradise’. He said it’s ok to pass on his email add to you. It is: rar1111@yahoo.com His name is Richard- really nice guy.
August 28, 2010 at 4:08 am
Hey
Post Punk Monk
I’ll email ya the past and Country boy singles no problem
And or mail ya hard copies cd
Or what ever rare things ya like
Mail me @
electroncalgary@yahoo.com
I’ll hook ya up
R
September 1, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Steve/Richard:
Thanks for the shout out. I appreciate the helping hands for a fan. I just got the Destination Pop single last week, but I’ve not had time to remaster it to digital. It’s lovely to see new material still reaching the fans.
September 12, 2010 at 1:49 am
Well, I finally got a chance to listen to the “Return To Love” single. The hi-hat sample reference makes me laugh. At least it isn’t an 8 bit orchestral hit! I can certainly live with it. And I like the bassline to the uptempo version a lot. I’m happy to hear the different version and glad that I have both under my roof. Billy liked to try different approaches and hearing more than one is great fun for a fan.
As a fan it’s also disheartening to hear about the “problem” with “Eurocentric.” I will admit that upon hearing “Memory Palace” that I felt the loose demo quality of the tracks were more of a “fans only” caliber. It has a 4-track portastudio quality and the vocals often sound dry and overmodulated. Quite unlike the full-tilt studio quality tracks on “Eurocentric,” which in all honesty, remains my favorite of the posthumous albums. It’s also frustrating, because I quite enjoy Paul Haig!
September 15, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Hi Steve very interesting read. Right please could you shed some light like what was the idea and inspiration lyrically and musically on the tracks 3 Gypsies in a Restaurant,Falling out with the Future and Hornophobic. I can recall seagate studio on a saturday morning and a young Jimmy Mack telling me to pop in to see Billy in the studio but i ended up meeting Stu Firm. Stu told me to wait as Billy was due in to finish some tracks which were Sour Jewel and Hornophobic he asked if i had heared the tracks i said no and he played me them. I can remember Stu saying Sour Jewel very very Glammy was going to be a single and then he played Hornophobic to me and my mates and we was gob smacked it was unreal ‘Billy full on Drum & Bass’ and we told Stu to tell Billy he has got to release it as a single and give The Prodigy a run for the money as i think they had just had a hit with Breath. See Ya J@mes
September 16, 2010 at 9:00 am
’3 Gypsies in a Restaurant’ is about the Holocaust. Billy had gypsy blood and felt strongly that the fate of the gypsies is often overlooked even tho they suffered proportionately as much as the Jews did. ‘Falling out with the Future’ was originally a kind of history of pop music with a chorus for each decade but John Vick rearranged the song so that the chorus about ‘the 90s’ became the middle 8 and the other ones were dropped. ‘Hornophobic’ is about sexual repression (horn=sex+phobic=fear of). S.
September 16, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Sorry should of put my thanks here instead of below. See Ya J@mes
September 16, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Thanks Steve
September 18, 2010 at 2:33 pm
postpunkmonk wrote:
“As a fan it’s also disheartening to hear about the “problem” with “Eurocentric.” I will admit that upon hearing “Memory Palace” that I felt the loose demo quality of the tracks were more of a “fans only” caliber. It has a 4-track portastudio quality and the vocals often sound dry and overmodulated. Quite unlike the full-tilt studio quality tracks on “Eurocentric,” which in all honesty, remains my favorite of the posthumous albums. It’s also frustrating, because I quite enjoy Paul Haig!”
Yes, this exactly. I remember when I first bought “Memory Palace” and listened to it, I asked Andy if I should send it back because it must be scratched all over, as the sound was awful in a lot of tracks. He looked at it, listened to it, and said, nah, it wasn’t damaged in anyway; that was the actual recording. I was shocked, because I (naively) really didn’t think anyone would release anything with such shocking sound quality commercially. Don’t get me wrong; I’m glad to have it – there are some cracking songs on there – but yes, perhaps it should have remained as bootlegs shared freely among us.
Steve thanks for replying so promptly to my email – I will answer it properly soon (ish).
Keep up the good work with the blog.
- Susan. x
September 20, 2010 at 6:39 pm
As I said, it’s probably best not to draw comparisons- but like it or not, people tend to do this. To be fair, there are a couple of tracks on Eurocentric (14th Century Nightlife and Liberty Lounge) which were recorded rough and I decided to include them regardless because the song still comes across well enough. In some instances (esp 14C N/life) the roughness even adds to the atmosphere and, if ‘cleaned up’, a track sometimes loses more than it gains. But I agree with both comments- that Memory Palace falls well short on production. S
September 29, 2010 at 5:43 pm
In all fairness, I’m sure that “Memory Palace was exactly what it needed to be at the time; demos a pair of musically talented friends collaborated on for their own pleasure. I’m sure no thought was ever made at the time that they would see the light of day as a commercial release. There’s still good material on them and the production enhances “Listen To Me,” in all frankness.
September 30, 2010 at 10:33 am
I agree- and think there are several songs released since Billy’s passing which wdve remained demos had he lived on. Naturally, fans want to hear everything that was ever done- but sometimes a balance needs to be struck. The release of Marc Bolan’s demos is one example which springs to mind- many tracks there which remained demos because they were obviously not up to scratch as songs and so were not taken any further. In this instance it was wrong (in my opinion) to release them. S
October 1, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Steve, I don’t know if by “released” you’re actually confining the word to the official, commercial sense, or widening it to include any leaks of bootlegs into the public domain. In the latter case, all the bootlegs I’ve encountered have – obviously – been knocking around for ages, the original source of their “leak” lost in the mists of time. I take the attitude that if I’ve been given access to them, then sharing them freely with others who wih to hear them is the only “right” thing to do.
Obviously people can differentiate between arough demo and a more polished commercial release, and don’t expect the same sound quality. Also, if I’m honest – there are a few – just a few – commercially released songs that I don’t personally care for, and will skip on albums (I mean, who can be expected to love 100% of an artist’s output 100% of the time), and I’d far rather listen to a rough-sounding demo of a song that IMO had more artistic merit. Tracks like “Stay Pure” (although that’s hardly rough) “The Mountains That You Climb” and “Gender Illusionist” are frequently played here, along with outtakes and demos of released tracks that I actually prefer to what ended up on the albums.
Anyway that’s my fifty pence worth.
BTW GG in moton – he that runs the Retro Dundee Blogspot – has unearthed some recordings of your old outfit, Blush. I don’t know where he digs this stuff up from, but the guy should be given the freedom of the city IMO. His blog is a treasure trove.
October 1, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Susan- ok this is the way I see it- if a song is good, decent, brilliant even, then the roughness of the recording won’t matter too much- and so bootlegs, pirate releases whatever are totally justified to disseminate such works to the world. I mentioned the Marc Bolan demos in a previous comment and these represent the opposite- i.e. sub-standard ideas that should never have been heard and I believe that Marc wd be turning in his grave. With Billy, for the most part, the demos that have been released have been worth ‘releasing’ (by that I just mean somehow made available) but there are one or two exceptions. e.g. the song ‘Velvet’ on ‘Auchtermatic’ which I knew nothing about until it came out and which neither of us wd have consented to in that form, not to mention the awful cover of ‘Here Come the Rain Again’.
On The Blush (I protested at the name but was ignored) this was the first ‘real’ band I joined as a drummer. The track featured on Retro Dundee I think is ‘Hey You’- we did well in Scotland for a while- had a following and all that but fell out over publishing rights- strangley enough it was Fiction Records (Billy’s label at that time) who offered us a deal. What is also weird is that we released a single called ‘Skipping’ only weeks before the Associates single came out. We were convinced they had ripped us off! xS
October 1, 2010 at 4:22 pm
PS please excuse my cack typing – keys a bit sticky on this laptop.
October 1, 2010 at 4:26 pm
PPS Soz; I meant “The Blush”. Got to get it right. As Blur were not The Blur, so were The Blush not Blush.
October 5, 2010 at 4:15 am
I haven’t weighed in on here
Although have really enjoyed Steve’s posts for some time
And the imput from friends
I have enjoyed the Memory Palace
And I take in that really hey they are demoes
But I value them alll the same
Perhaps nice to hear something unproduced
And I take it that way .. and I’m fine with it
As Steve mentions like Trex they weren’t meant to be released
But I’m grateful for them.. without judgement
I am also happy to hear Trex unreleased cause like Billy I want it All
BTW met Gloria Jones .. Marc’s wife last week here and she was so very lovely
And her site to help kids in Africa is here …
http://www.myspace.com/marcbolanschoolofmusicandfilm
I agree Here comes the rain is ok .. but could b better
On the flip
3 Gypiesies is Amazing !
And I don’t care what anyone says
13 Century is Devasasting !!!!
And I am so happy it came out
Love the demo and lovin more the Eurocentic one
And Eurocentic is OOOOO so Nice !
And why O Why ???
Has
“The mountians that you climb ”
Never been released ????????????????????????????????????
It is so Heartbreakingly Beautiful
It is a Crime it has not been available to people ?
Ok my 2 .. or 3 cents
Luv this blog
Big Luv to Steve !
xoxoxo
October 5, 2010 at 12:17 pm
On ‘Mountains that you Climb’- I am scouting around for an ADAT machine- the master might be on one of the ADAT tapes I have. These machines are long defunct and hardly anyone uses them but I will find one somehow. As Richard knows, I offered this song to David McAlmont- one of the few singers alive who cd pull off those high notes- but he turned it down! I agree it is a bit special and if re-done properly has classic potential. If I get my mitts on the master I promise it will get it done but, as I said, I won’t know if I have it until I find that elusive ADAT machine to check thru the tapes. S
October 5, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Steve what make or model of ADAT machine are you looking for or will any do. Thanks J@mes
October 6, 2010 at 3:51 pm
thanks James- I’ve managed to locate an ADAT machine in Dundee so when I go over there at Christmas I can go thru all the tapes etc. S
October 6, 2010 at 10:25 pm
No Problem. All the best J@mes
October 6, 2010 at 2:17 am
I hope yah find the adat your looking for
Funny enough i am one of the few still using mine
It has low hours so I’m still good
One thing worth mentioning is that the Alesis LX models play all types of adats
they are 20 bit
But the older models don’t play 20 bit
I have offered my adat for Steve but we are in different countries
Although as we are pals I’d be happy to transfer it to another format .. but that means I’d need the tape
Which since he doesn’t know which tape it’s on could be a little much to ask
Either way I’m game
Richard
October 6, 2010 at 3:12 am
PS
I do have a digital copy of Mountains
Directly from Billy’s dog show friend Linda
It is good but has some waver on the vocal with the reverb
ut also I do have a another digital copy that is much clearer and better
Although could use some eq ing
Actually very clear
And much better than the former
Happy to get it to MR Steve if it’s useful
It’s really quite good a mix
I is a 2 track stereo mix though
R
October 6, 2010 at 3:55 pm
thanks Richard- I have the original on DAT. It wd need a remix tho, ditch the click-track drum machine, clean up the vocal (there is software now to remove reverb) and overall arrange the track properly like a 60s type soul ballad which was always our intention. As I said to James, I’ve located an ADAT machine in Dundee so I can go thru all the tapes when I go there at Christmas. S
October 7, 2010 at 2:18 am
That’s great news
I figure you’d find one their not as rare as one would suppose
After all they were used a lot I figure in the past
And I’d guess there are a lotta people that have stuff on tapes they should transfer still
I love the track but your ideas I know will make it even better
yes the drum track could be tossed
And yes the reverb isn’t needed .. it’s a bit harsh anyway
Ah this is good news
If your ike me your bound to find some treasures you’ve forgotten about
here’s hoping
;0)
R
October 7, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Wow. All this talk about the Alesis ADAT platform. I remember when it was brand new and the proverbial bees knees. Now, less than 20 years later and it’s a relic that has master tapes obsoleted. Now you need to mount an archaeology expedition to transfer masters to modern formats. I know that my Sony DAT deck bought the farm astonishingly fast. That thing had less that 100 hours on it when the transport logic freaked out on me. I’ve still got a few recordings that I never mastered to disk yet.
October 8, 2010 at 1:14 am
I have thought about all the older formats that need to be transfered .. and I saw this problem coming back in the 90′s
yes you have the masters but you can’t find a machine or old computer with the software to play them
I saw a lotta things getting lost in the near future
And it’s coming to pass
And we all know we mean to transfer it .. but we never get around to it
When we do it may be too late
As to ya Sony dat .. worth droppin the extra cash and getting way for life out of it
I went for the tascam and it’s still going strong .. knock wood
Even my old tascam 4 track works still .. well I think .. better look into that
Watch as your cool new recordings are unplayable in a few years cause you can’t play them on ya new IMac 3001
Now about the old 8 track tapes for the car .. Mmmmm
better get me a back up
cause who likes driving around with no music from ya good old trusty 8 track player
Cause TREX no sounds good on any other format
Lets not even get into my groovy 78 records
But maybe we should…?
Yes still playable after close to 100 years
Oh those kids with their eyepad record players !
Who needs that stuff !
R
December 8, 2010 at 8:37 pm
And the adats recreate top end or bottom for the recordings would have been so much better if everything was done in 24 bit 96 instead of 16 bit 48khz, you would listen to the playback and think that just sounds like an mp3 of the original signal.
December 8, 2010 at 8:38 pm
sorry didnt recreate the top or bottom
December 8, 2010 at 11:53 pm
You’ve lost me Stuart re top and bottom. Let’s discuss this later.
October 8, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Hi Steve or anyone else can you please help with the Piano Chords for The Associate and also It’s Better This Way Please Please can someone help. Thanks James
October 9, 2010 at 12:06 pm
@James It’s Better this Way cycles around the following 4 chords for the entire track: D minor, B flat minor, G minor, B flat minor 7th. I don’t have a copy of the Associate so can’t help you there. S
October 9, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Thanks Steve your a star. Have one more to ask for please and then that’s it have you got the chords for Skipping. thanks James
October 9, 2010 at 5:49 pm
@James Skipping is more complex chord-wise. The intro and verse are B minor to C repeated. up to ‘December’ where it changes to G to B minor twice followed by a held E chord, then the bridge section is E minor to F sharp repeated then E minor down to a held C major 7th (+9). The chorus is: B minor, C, D, E7 repeated. Hope this helps. S
October 9, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Steve for the help with the Chords i will sort you out with François Truffaut Fahrenheit 451 if you did not get chance to get your hands on a copy. See Ya J@mes
October 9, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Steve with me pestering about chords it got me thinking in your opinion of The Associates music what would you say was the simplest piece of music Billy and Alan or Steve Reid wrote and what was the most complex tune they wrote. Also Steve thanks for Skipping if you want Fahrenheit 451 please email me Private and i will sort it out for you. Once again thank you. All the best J@mes
October 10, 2010 at 9:44 am
@James- I don’t know all of the Associates albums- I only know Sulk and even then that is a hard question that wd require analysis of each song. They often achieved harmonic movement thru using mobile bass-lines (Better this Way is a good example) rather than thru complex chord progressions. I do this sometimes esp with Carcassette songs. It’s a good one because you get groove from the b-line as well as melodic content. It’s ok about Fahrenheit 451- I’ll get around to renting it out at some point. Thanks anyway. S
October 10, 2010 at 11:07 am
Steve can i ask you then what is the simplest piece of music you wrote with Billy and the same for complex piece of music and which piece do you regard as your creme de la creme. Thanks J@mes
October 10, 2010 at 3:57 pm
@James- if you mean simple chord-wise it wd have to be an electronic track like ‘Hornophobic’ or ‘Falling out with the Future’. Electronic dance music is by its very nature simple in chord terms- but it is complex in other ways because you have many more layers of sound than you wd in, say, a stripped-down piano ballad. With the latter the opposite is true- the complexity of a song like ‘When the World was Young’ off Eurocentric lies in the chord structure. With Billy, nothing was ever what I wd call ‘simple’ so, again, not able to give a precise answer. As for a personal favourite out of all our work, it has to be 14th Century Nightlife- I never get bored of it. S
October 10, 2010 at 8:16 pm
Thanks mate for answer, Yep 14th Century Nightlife got to agree take some beating. All the best J@mes
October 9, 2010 at 8:19 pm
ooo Fahrenheit 451 !
I found a copy a while ago it’s so good !
Nichols Roeg was cinematographer on it too i believe
you guys have good taste
October 10, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Thanks Richard
December 3, 2010 at 4:43 am
having a regular nightlife can make your life a very colorful one, i enjoy having nigh outs :*:
December 8, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Hi Steve how are you, Im just away to buy eurocentric it seems that it is the rarest of all the albums its costing me 30 pounds on amazon
December 8, 2010 at 11:52 pm
Stuart- don’t buy it for that price. I am re-issuing it shortly. And anyway you of all people deserve a free copy
January 7, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Steve,
your writing continues to provide a fascinating account of your work and friendship with Billy. And your latest piece (#25) is the first that I’ve read to bring new light to the familiar tale of the Rankine-MacKenzie split.
Thanks as ever for your sense of honesty and integrity. I really admire and enjoy your collaborations with Billy – and your blog keeps giving fresh insights.
Are you able to tell us any more about your Eurocentric reissue? Will it be a straight re-release or contain a new track listing?
Many thanks again,
Johnny
January 7, 2011 at 7:19 pm
Hi Johnny- the Eurocentric re-issue will be ready for March- available from the Mont Records site. It will be a straight re-release. S
May 17, 2011 at 11:49 am
Hi Steve,
I was just wondering if you planned to make any more posts here?
Perhaps you feel you’ve said everything you need to say. But your writing about working with Billy has been insightful and touching. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Also, is there any news on the unreleased material mentioned on the Mont Records site?
all the best,
Johnny
May 17, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Hi Johnny,
Yes- I think I’ve said everything that needed saying- I might suddenly think of something- some forgotten anecdote but it is unlikely.
As regards unreleased material there is a new track ‘The Mountains that you Climb’ which is appearing on a remix album of various artists called ‘Stolen Voices’ by White Label.
We are waiting for the vinyl which we should have in about 3 weeks time. It was also be available as an mp3 download on the Mont site.
As will a re-issue of the Eurocentric album.
I know it should have been out in March but we had some problems with legalities. Steve
May 17, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Thanks for the tip-off Steve. On the Mont website it refers to ‘sifting thru possibly two cds worth of lost (Billy) tracks’. Is that still looking like a possibility?
cheers,
Johnny
May 19, 2011 at 10:15 pm
I don’t think so- I went thru a load of old A-dat tapes earlier this year but there wasn’t even one cd’s worth of useable material- this is how I found the Mountains that you Climb track. There is another called ‘Talahachi Pass’ which I might be able to do something with but that’s pretty much it from my end.
Steve, my partner on the Mont label was also referring I think to demos that he did with Billy back in the early 90s but it seems that the tapes are either lost or, for now, very hard to find. S
September 8, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Hi Steve, just read your post re Billy. Firstly, love your music and the tracks you did with Billy are quite beautiful. I didn’t get the opportunity to see The Associates play live – not sure why on hindsight as I went to lots of gigs and was a huge admirer of them. No, the only time I got to see Billy in the flesh was when he walked through the bar of the William IV pub in Hampstead Village with a whippet. How rubbish is that for a claim to fame! Cheers. Tony P
September 9, 2011 at 8:42 am
Thanks Tony- there’s more stuff about Billy under ‘Archive’ if you’re interested. Steve
December 22, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Hi Steve,
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your blog this past year or so [and the wonderful beats you got going with Billy] incredibly previously unaware of Billy’s passing. It’s very sad but you’ve captured him, his talent for surreal and abstract conversation [we should swap some anecdotes - I've found myself laughing out loud recalling a conversation with him about 'exotic' and then seeing that 'cartoon exotic' image on the cover of Sulk]. I’d always imagined him snug and happy up in Dundee. I knew him in London in the summer of 1980 and the way fate can have its way lost touch due to the weirdest set of circumstances: we were supposed to go dancing in dec 1980 – no doubt part of my disco musical re-education [trying to explain Sun Ra's shambolic hour long funk groove 'space is the place' to Billy a dead loss]. Anyway I’m currently in Dundee and have been to Balgay to pay my respects – can you recommend other Billy haunts.
cheers,
Ann
December 23, 2011 at 8:36 am
Hi Ann
If you mean haunts in Dundee, he didn’t really have any. He had a place in Auchterhouse and spent his time there with his dogs. When I visit Dundee I usually walk up Auchterhouse Hill and remember him that way. You might already know it- it’s not too strenuous and there’s excellent views over the Sidlaws from the top.
Steve
December 24, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Hi Steve,
Incredibly was up on the sidlaws yesterday – sunny and crisp – coming out of the pines and over the stream near the flats a dog came out with leash in its mouth and its owner not far behind – we walked along the Old Whisky Road and into a paddock very wild and bar with sheep and the hills high above with splendid views and then wounf down the Tealing road.. as we got chatting further it transpired we walked right by where he’d passed so I walked back up – horses in the paddock [he's been quite chuffed to learn I used to ride horses by the sea, galloping my dog] – to quote Billy you couold see forever and the hill was high enough [to quote a Billy borrowing of Hendrix, to touch the sky]
she was very kind and came back to pick me up in her car and took me to the mansion house [now private so we couldn't gop in] wher he liked to sit at the bar [she lived there 30 years]
even more uncanny the florist I’d chosen had babysat Billy’s dogs when she was 11 and had lived in the house next door to the flats
as you suggested, walking up there a great way to remember him
March 18, 2012 at 9:36 am
Hi Anne, sorry for the late reply- definitely the best way to remember him- certainly beats grave-stones and graveyards. Steve
March 29, 2012 at 8:30 am
Steve, do you have the lyrics for “Mountains that you climb ” ? I know a few singers and am hoping to get one to cover the song. cheers.
March 29, 2012 at 10:11 am
Sure- let me know if you need the chords. Steve
V1 Gets to me in the morning, gets to me when each night feels the same,
Then you leave without warning, and I don’t know if I’ll see you again,
When you’re out in the city, I know there’s more who’ll entertain you,
When you’re out in the city, can’t expect the rain to explain what you do
CH1 You say that you feel more alive when you’re close to crying,
And the mountains that you climb are there to set you free
V2 Guess there’s no good in trying, guess there’s no good in showing I care,
You’re next to me and I’m buying a part of you that I know I must share
When you’re out in the city, I know there’s more who’ll entertain you,
When you’re out in the city, can’t expect the rain to explain what you do
CH2 You say that you feel more alive when you’re close to crying
And the mountains that you climb are there to set you free
And when I drive into these eyes, well I know there’s no use lying baby,
So turn around and close the door, I know you’re gonna run on me
INSTR, repeat CH2
March 30, 2012 at 2:45 am
Yeah sure if you put them up I’ll pass them on. Thanks so much. I presume you know the track is downloadable via Soundcloud ? Also, i was under the impression that the rough demo (as heard on Youtube) was the only version available but the Stolen Voices mix seems to have a different and slightly cleaner vocal take ? Any behind-the-scenes info on that ? Is it all stemming from the same recording ?
March 30, 2012 at 9:36 am
Yes, I know about the mixes on Soundcloud- I did them with 2 other musician friends under the name White label. You’re right- it is a different vocal take from the version on youtube- we stumbled across it while going thru a load of old A-dat masters of demos i did with Billy back in ’94. Because it was on multi-track we were able to isolate the vocal and rebuild the song from scratch. I couldn’t even remember us recording a 2nd version but there it was- right at the end of the very last tape we checked through! Anyway, here are the chords: (because I have no hash key, sharp chords are written as flats (eg Fsharp=Gb)
INT: Emj7 Dmj7 Cmj7 Dbm (rpt) V1: Emj7 A Gbm7 B7 Emj7 Gmj7 Gbm7 B7 A Ab Dbm Ab Emj7 Cmj7 Dbm Ab Ab CH1: Emj7 Ab A B7 Emj7 Dmj7 Cmj7 Dbm Dbm V2: Emj7 A Gbm7 B7 Emj7 Gmj7 Gbm7 B7 A Ab Dbm Ab Emj7 Cmj7 Dbm Ab Ab Ab CH2: Emj7 Ab A B7 Emj7 Dmj7 Cmj7 Dbm Emj7 Ab A E Emj7 Dmj7 Cmj7 Dbm Dbm rpt INT rpt CH2 rpt INT (end)
each chord lasts 1 bar! Steve
May 2, 2012 at 8:04 pm
Thank you Steve. (excuse my delayed manners). peace.
May 2, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Also, I have to stand up for Wild and Lonely: true, the production is a bit cheap and stilted. But I have to say that those SONGS got through to me in a big way. The song themselves are dynamite. In particular: the best traits of all parties concerned came together on “Fire to Ice” and I’m addicted to the pop brilliance, the whimsical arrangement, Ann Dudley’s PERFECT strings and Billy’s voice: which is nuanced with such faithful and passionate intent He may have been difficult: but he NAILED a gorgeous pop vocal on that. Also, “Strasbourg Square” became an instant favorite. And “Ever Since That Day” with it’s combination of dimestore prose / romantic novelism and that MELODY. GORGEOUS.